Best Young Players in BC / Canada

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LFC, Jan 13, 2016.

  1. CanadianSpur

    CanadianSpur Member

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    Tottenham's academy, which is now acknowledged as one of the best in England and produced more recent first team players than ManU is double the size of the 'Caps in terms of number of players and had I believe over 40 full time staff devoted to the youth players. Add to that the state of the art training facility that they built for 50 million pounds and you can see how far the 'Caps have to go to be world class. I don't expect that the 'Caps can compete with EPL teams in terms of financing youth development but $1 million/annum is really small change in the global scheme. If they are truly serious about about developing from within, they need to step up their game.

    If Canada is relying on the pro academies to develop players we are still miles behind.
     
  2. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    they are under the same tab/umbrella on Whitecaps FC web page. It discusses that it's a full-time program, but I couldn't see who they play. They aren't listed on the USSDA pre-residency web site.
     
  3. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    You cannot compare Whitecaps to BPL teams, Whitecaps are valued at 86 million with 23 million in annual revenue, Tottenham is valued at 600 million with 293 million in revenue.-, by that logic Tottenhams academy should 7 times bigger than the Whitecaps.
     
  4. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Tottenham has been doing a great job recently. I am referring to the last 10 years. I am also not referring to EPL players they develop into MUFC first teamers, but strictly players they develop into EPL first teamers (ie, Craig Cathcart).
     
  5. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Exactly.
     
  6. CanadianSpur

    CanadianSpur Member

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    Of course you cant compare the EPL and MLS but my point is this... Do you think there are more potential high quality players in the Whitecaps territory than are represented in the Academy/Residency? I suspect the answer is yes. So where do these players develop? The Academy needs to be bigger and better. Not on the scale of an EPL team but you need to invest in development if you want players consistently coming out of your youth system. IMO the Whitecaps don't do enough.
     
  7. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    There's always the possibility the Whitecaps have "missed" a player. That is the case in any area. If there was a player out there, of the Whitecaps academy calibre, that isn't in BCSPL they'd be totally dominant - which means everyone would be talking about that player and word would get to the Whitecaps. Should the Whitecaps have something like an "A" academy and "B" academy - I guess you have to look at the cost-benefit analysis from the Whitecaps perspective for that sort of move. That's more residency kids, more coaches required, more travel costs etc etc etc. For what purpose? How many of those "B" players are going to make the USL or MLS squad, how many of those "B" players will they be able to trade within MLS or sell overseas.....
     
  8. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    I know of a very talented kid, plays for SU BCSPL , his team had 2 very good players that were better or equal to him, those players have moved to whitecaps now the team is his, he scores 2-3 goals a game it seems , likely less but the point is he is now the dominant player for the team and having success. Will the Whitecaps pick him up, maybe , maybe not if they see him has a striker or attacking midfielder and already have several similar quality options then he probably doesn't get picked up, he will have to become better than the options they already have or learn to be more than a one dimensional player.... And this is exactly what we should want...

    Bottom line is Whitecaps are doing more than we have ever had, it will continue to grow as long as there is corporate support and political will , its just not going to happen over night. Someone has to pay for and fund it, we cant simply say it should be bigger they should do more, what justifies it, who pays for it, whats the return?
    Now better is a whole other argument, and bigger isn't always better,in fact it rarely is...
     
  9. CanadianSpur

    CanadianSpur Member

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    That's where the thinking is too narrow. It's not about taking the stars and moving them into the residency. It's identifying players that can improve and develop in the proper environment. Your comments talk about players not in BCSPL but the 'Caps territory extends well beyond that.

    "In accordance with MLS territorial regulations, Whitecaps FC recruit players from BC, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and parts of Eastern Canada. The primary objective is to identify local BC-based players through the BC Soccer Premier League, as well as other Canadian players across the club's territory."

    From that potential player pool there should be more players training in a professional environment. If not with the 'Caps, then where?
     
  10. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    These 17-18 year olds all made the Whitecaps 2 Roster:
    Matthew Baldisimo - Burnaby
    Terran Campbell from Burnaby
    Kadin Chung from North Vancouver
    Thomas Gardner from North Vancouver - played last night


    This 15 year old played from the Whitecaps last night preseason game
    Alphonso Davies from Edmonton

    I would say these are the kids from the local area to keep an eye on moving forward.
     
  11. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    FC Barcelona academy is around 6m euro's/year to run. Whitecaps is about $1m/yr. This is a pretty fair ratio in comparison to the two clubs.

    The Whitecaps can and should only be expected to run 1 team per year or 1 team per two years. I assume they have around 22 kids per team? That's a large number. It is not the Whitecaps sole responsibility to develop professional talent in Canada in those territories. Where are the USL/NASL owners? When will the CPSL start?

    Yes Whitecaps are taking players from outside the BCSPL - but those players are in the elite leagues within their own province/territory.

    I love challenging the Whitecaps - but let's not put undue pressure on them. They are not responsible for the future of Canada soccer. They are responsible for the future of the Whitecaps.
     
  12. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    They have a long history of moving kids through the academy - but very few who have made a local impact. Not since the 90's/early 2000's. Teibert has done pretty good in MLS but not exactly a star. Who else?
     
  13. Admin

    Admin Administrator

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    For me, the key word in all that is:

    TAKE

    Clubs develop and receive no compensation as far as I know?
     
  14. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Some youth clubs in USA have now sued MLS for their compensation fees. I think one in Washington State and one in Texas. A Canadian club did receive compensation, I think from Tottenham. They didn't even ask for it. Tottenham just gave it because it's standard practice.

    It's a world wide standard.

    I can't recall the details. If you google it you'll prob find it.
     
  15. socceroo

    socceroo Member

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    Alphonso and Thomas both great players and played well last night. A must watch
     
  16. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    Challenges I see with compensation are:
    1. Transparency - who receives the compensation? how is disclosed , what doe sit get used for?
    2. How to you value the compensation?
    3. The idea of compensation is that the current club stands to loose something by losing the player so what does an BCSPL club stand to loose exactly? These are amateur players not paid ... the BCSPL have no financial loss from losing a player as these players end their careers with the club after U18, there is no big club or pro league they move on to within the club.

    This is how England handles it, too me this would be more applicable between MLS clubs than form community clubs.
    Elite Player Performance Plan

    A fixed tariff for transfers of players under 18 – The proposed tariff is:[5]

    Years spent at academy Fixed fee per year
    aged 9–11 £3,000
    aged 12–16 £12,500 - £40,000 depending on academy category
    This will replace the current system of an independent tribunal for compensation.[9] Thus a player who spends 6 years at the club may give rise to a fee of £56,000 (£3,000 x 2 + £12,500 x 4). Further fixed fees are payable on the player making first team appearances in any senior competition:

    Appearances Premier League Championship League One League Two
    10 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    20 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    30 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    40 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    50 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    60 £150,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    70 £100,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    80 £100,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    90 £100,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000
    100 £100,000 £25,000 £10,000 £5,000


    FIFA offers this interesting bit on training compensation, which might suggest clubs shoudl be receiving compensation from the Whitecaps as per FIFA regulations
    Annexe 4 starting on page 34
     
  17. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Compensation is straight forward. It's used world-wide. Follow the world-wide standard.

    Yes, BCSPL clubs etc should be compensated by Whitecaps. But, it wouldn't just be the BCSPL. You'd have to compensate the clubs the player was at before the BCSPL as well.

    Who gets the fees? The club does. I know it's parents paying the bill, but it should be clubs getting the funds. The club can then put that money back into their club and feasibly reduce fees for everyone - at least for a while......
     
  18. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    Sorry i don't think its that simple, lots to be worked out, player status is very important in figuring out compensation. I don't think BCSPL teams register there players under amateur contracts as such there maybe no legal requirement for compensation, or at least this is my understanding. If the BCSPL teams do then that is a first step . BC soccer needs to address this issue of compensation in its rules and bylaws. The other issue is a youth player is free to play wherever they want, registration is only valid for 1 year. so after season is over the current club no longer owns your rights. IF Whitecaps should be compensating BCSPL teams then BCSPL teams should be compensating each other for player transfers etc, and community clubs for the players as well. However youth players are not under contract clubs have no entitlement to them unless an amateur contract is signed, which would only happen at Whitecaps residency level. Should a team be compensated due to a players choice to change teams? As long as players pay a fee to play the club is being compensated for training, and compensation should go to the parent who paid the fees not the club who received them.
    If we want compensation from the Whitecaps , then BCSPL players should be on amateur contracts with their rights owned by that team and no fee to play....I don't think that the direction we are wanting to go...
     
  19. CanadianSpur

    CanadianSpur Member

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    Compensation is only due when a player signs a professional contract so your comment about BCSPL compensating each other makes no sense.

    I don't recall reading anything in the FIFA rules regarding training compensation requiring players to sign an "amateur contract" although there is mention of a contract.


    Relevant section from CSA rule:

    "


    i) Subject to the rules and regulations of the Provincial/Territorial Association concerned, an amateur player may be transferred to a Professional club upon payment of a fee to the Provincial/Territorial Association with which the player is registered.

    j) Provincial/Territorial Associations shall distribute training compensation payments to the amateur club(s) involved in the development of the player in accordance with the FIFA Regulations on Status of Transfer of Players."

    From FIFA:

    " Article 20 Training compensation

    Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s):

    (1) when a player signs his first contract as a professional and
    (2) each time a professional is transferred until the end of the season of his
    23rd birthday. The obligation to pay training compensation arises
    whether the transfer takes place during or at the end of the player’s
    contract. The provisions concerning training compensation are set out
    in Annexe 4 of these regulations.

    Article 21 Solidarity mechanism

    If a professional is transferred before the expiry of his contract, any
    club that has contributed to his education and training shall receive
    a proportion of the compensation paid to his former club (solidarity
    contribution). The provisions concerning solidarity contributions are
    set out in Annexe 5 of these regulations."
     
  20. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    (I deleted most of your post for the sake of space)

    Amateur clubs need not pay compensation to other amateur clubs. To put it bluntly, it's ridiculous for you to equate this to pro teams paying compensation. Pro clubs pay compensation. Amateur clubs do not. Pro clubs pay compensation, and the clubs that helped develop the player each get a percentage. Gareth Bale is the largest, most relevant example with the amount his transfer cost, that was filtered all the way down to his youth club in Wales. They got the smallest percentage but it still worked out to a huge revenue increase for that youth club, which then benefits it's members significantly (likely reducing costs to the parents to register their kids with that club now).

    World wide compensation is a standard practice. The youth clubs in USA that are suing for compensation will almost certainly win that battle. MLS accepted compensation, and the world wide standard is that the MLS then distributes it to the youth clubs that helped develop the player. MLS kept that payment quiet and withheld it. A Canadian club did receive compensation - I'll google it.

    Youth clubs can still charge fees for players to participate - they have to or the club won't run. Receiving compensation simply is another form of revenue for the club. The youth club being an NFP simply need put this in their financial records and produce this at the AGM (or upon request from a member) and prove how they are putting these funds back into the club/society.

    Re: the Whitecaps - they get all the "benefit" of BCSPL in that they get advertising, and players for their academy. I don't know if Whitecaps help fund the league. No one has ever answered this for me. But, if they don't, I believe they should be. Then if the Whitecaps choose to sign a player they have already, in effect, paid compensation by providing a fee to the league on an annual basis. What I would suggest is the Whitecaps essentially help pay for administrative costs and referee costs to run the league, thus reducing player fees.

    Here is the article. There really is no argument against compensation. Doneil Henry's club paid his youth club compensation, and the youth club didn't even ask for it.

    "So far, Crossfire and other U.S. clubs have sought solidarity for their players, only to be shut down. But in Canada, no laws or legal agreements prevent the distribution of such payments."
    U.S. Soccer calls youth club solidarity meeting

    There's a note in there that Whitecaps have an agreement to collect solidarity/compensation payments if a player signs abroad. You can be sure they received payment for Dario Zanatta (payment is required for any player under the age of 24), even if it was a small amount, from Hearts.
     

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