BCSPL v Metro Soccer v DIV 1

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
TKBC - them 2 Boys U15 groups were just an example of why teams need to be moved up down which can,t be done with Metro now . Some people will knit pick , but them bottom 3 teams in that U15 Metro have won 1 game each all season.There are many other examples in the various Boys leages .Scrapping Metro and replacing with Divisions would enable easier movement and players/teams would be playing at their level .

yup. i do think it's a case now that BCSA needs to take over the entire league structure. they've set-up BCSPL (warts and all) and it seems to be settled with scheduling etc. It's time BCSA does the same for MSL down to Div 2 (I would suggest making Div 3-4 completely rec but I guess that's another discussion). streamline everything. BCSPL can keep it's name, but everything else call it Div 1-3 or whatever it would be, and allow for easier movement, organization and standardization.
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
I agree that the Metro league needs scrapped. I had a look at the Distric5 rules about players moving down from a Metro team. Here is the part on this from the district 5 guide

Commitment to Metro Select League

The member Districts of the 5 District League annually re-affirm their individual District’s

commitment to the Metro Select League. To this end, no District shall knowingly permit nonparticipation

in the Metro Select League for the reason of gaining advantage in 5 District League

play. In each division where a member District does not put forward a MSL team, that District

must state its reason in writing and be granted explicit permission by the 5 District League

Board to enter a League team(s) in a division of play.


Teams wishing to register more than three players who played in the MSL League in the

previous season will require specific permission of the League. District approval must be

obtained first and then a written request must be submitted by the District to the League before

the June meeting. Written request must include the division, team name(s) and standings, the

coaches’ name, how many returning players from the previous season and the rationale for

adding more ex-MSL players. Teams found not to have received permission to register more

than three (3) former MSL


In the case of the 3 teams that have been discussed about moving down(relegated) it appears to be quite a hurdle. Is anyone on the board here that has knowledge of a team moving back to Div1 from Metro? How long does this process take? How are the Metro players supposed to know which evaluations to attend. The timelines above do not work for the kids involved as the decisions are way too late as evaluations have already taken place at most if not all clubs and all levels.

What happens if there are ten kids from 1 community that are moving down to Div1 and the "rationale" is not accepted. Are these players then split up to various Gold/Silver/Bronze teams?

I do not have a resolution to this but if there was no separate Metro league this would not be a hurdle at all. Div1 teams with a terrible record would simply be placed in Div2 the following season. Easy Peasy.

I would also add that IMO the top 3 teams from U15 Metro are as good as the bottom 3 in the BCSPL. The system setout is not really working as hoped.


Although the rules say you basically have to apply to withdraw from MSL - I imagine a team that wins zero or 1 game, or a team that has a terrible GD and then finds it has the same players returning would not have much difficulty proving they should not be in MSL.
 

LFC

Active Member
Aug 23, 2015
314
4 -the-kids . great post with alot of great suggestions to improve youth soccer in BC .
BCSPL has a different playing season Feb to June which should be implemented for all youth select levels .
Admin mentioned in an earlier post about CSA possibly taking over the BCSPL and hopefully that goes ahead so that the other 95% kids/youth players get more attention from BC Soccer.
Div 1 should be the top tier with Div 2,3 ,4 & 5 etc - teams would be placed at their level and if they are not they can be easily moved up /down which is not possible with Metro .

BC Soccer should get feedback from its members - clubs , coach,s , parents, players . There is alot of good posts on this FORUM and hopefully BC SOCCER takes note . please makle changes
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
All the other rosters have 16 -19 players !

Don't know what to tell ya bud. BCSPL teams can bring in permit players from any club in the province. Maybe they've got another 10 kids still trying out so they'll bring them in for games on permits. As a D1 coach last year I loaned players to a BCSPL team well outside of our district for a few games so the kid could tryout.
 

Metro Dad

Member
Jan 25, 2016
22
BC Youth Soccer made some changes by replacing the tier 1 leage Metro with BCSPL but doesn,t really seem to have made any huge difference . Talking about boys as not very upto date on girls side.

BCSPL $2000 - $2500 +
MSL - Metro Soccer Leage - $650 - $750
Div 1 - $ 300 - $350

BCSPL seems to be the favourite of BC Soccer so is prob here to stay despite the costs & 3-4 clubs dominating
SU,Coastal , CMF & Mountain - these rest are about the same level as the top Div 1 teams.

Metro - Surrey clubs without BCSPL franchises seem to dominate

Div 1 - Surrey clubs dominate with upto 5-6 teams in Div 1 in each age group

It would make sense to scrap Boys Metro and merge it into the Divisional Leage .

Whats your views on above ???
I think the only way it might make sense to amalgamate Metro and Division 1 is if the top team at the end of the year is moved up into the SPL league the following season, and the weakest SPL team is likewise relegated.
 

Admin

Administrator
Feb 23, 2015
392
IMHO, promotion/relegation at the youth level is an adult ego issue and would benefit no one if implemented. SPL is about developing players, not teams.
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
I think the only way it might make sense to amalgamate Metro and Division 1 is if the top team at the end of the year is moved up into the SPL league the following season, and the weakest SPL team is likewise relegated.

I disagree completely. I hear what you are saying. Typically the team that wins MSL is a very good team. And the team that finished bottom of SPL has a number of significant issues (from what I've seen these teams usually have a massive negative GD and win 1 or 0 games). BUT, if you start putting in pro-rel you will get coaches that focus on results not development. And that's the exact opposite of what this country needs. We need players to be coached and playing without fear of demotion for failing to apply a technique. We need players who can play without fear and thus learn to apply techniques. I understand there are gaps in this theory - there's something to be said for players who develop a dog-eat-dog attitude that pro-rel can bring. I get it. But look at where we are as a nation that has had pro-rel in a wide variety of leagues and provinces across this country. We have to change that attitude.

Also keep in mind not every MSL player can afford BCSPL. MSL teams that win their league surely have quite a few players good enough for BCSPL (I would guess the average for a team like that would be around 10???) but maybe the coach in their BCSPL district isn't their cup of tea, or maybe they can't afford the fees, or maybe they win MSL but the BCSPL team from their club is very good....it's not black-white. Also maybe the boys who are on the MSL team have other priorities in life and can't handle the training requirements of BCSPL, or maybe they can't play during the same period of time that BCSPL has it's games, etc etc etc

You can't force kids and parents to enter a certain league.
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
I think the only way it might make sense to amalgamate Metro and Division 1 is if the top team at the end of the year is moved up into the SPL league the following season, and the weakest SPL team is likewise relegated.

I do agree that MSL needs to be re-worked. I agree you should probably have MSL more clearly linked with Division 1. But MSL is a "district" league - every district has to have a rep unless they apply not to have one.

I think the very best thing MSL can do is limit each district to 1-2 entries. 1 entry if player registration is below a certain amount, 2 if player registration is above a certain amount and if a specific district has a very talented gold team or a huge number of registrations can apply to get a 3rd. But, MSL is far too big. The gap between the top-middle-bottom is massive and it harms development and player experiences in it's current incarnation. Having 2 teams in a district isn't a perfect idea, but when I see 2-3 teams in Coquitlam, another team in Maple Ridge, 3-4 teams in Surrey, another 2 teams in Fraser Valley not to mention White Rock, Richmond, all the Vancouver teams etc.....that's far far far too watered down.
 

Metro Dad

Member
Jan 25, 2016
22
yup. i do think it's a case now that BCSA needs to take over the entire league structure. they've set-up BCSPL (warts and all) and it seems to be settled with scheduling etc. It's time BCSA does the same for MSL down to Div 2 (I would suggest making Div 3-4 completely rec but I guess that's another discussion). streamline everything. BCSPL can keep it's name, but everything else call it Div 1-3 or whatever it would be, and allow for easier movement, organization and standardization.

Revision is needed but I would be concerned that pooling Div 2, Dev. 1 and Metro will create a very weak environment for talented players to improve their game. Way too many poor players within such a large group. Agree with the above the the bottom three Metro U15 teams don't really belong there, certainly the bottom one or two, and the top one or two Div 1 teams deserve a chance to play Metro. Similarly, the top U15 boys Metro team from last year - who won the league, Coastal Cup AND Provincial title - deserves to be part of the BCSPL this year, providing of course that this is their ambition. Whenever I mention to parents with kids in other sports that there is no well defined relegation system between Metro and SPL, they are extremely surprised.
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
Revision is needed but I would be concerned that pooling Div 2, Dev. 1 and Metro will create a very weak environment for talented players to improve their game. Way too many poor players within such a large group. Agree with the above the the bottom three Metro U15 teams don't really belong there, certainly the bottom one or two, and the top one or two Div 1 teams deserve a chance to play Metro. Similarly, the top U15 boys Metro team from last year - who won the league, Coastal Cup AND Provincial title - deserves to be part of the BCSPL this year, providing of course that this is their ambition. Whenever I mention to parents with kids in other sports that there is no well defined relegation system between Metro and SPL, they are extremely surprised.

You would essentially just be renaming MSL to Div 1. Then having more Div 1 leagues with a smaller group of teams. Say Div 1A, B, C etc....At u13 you have a tiering process, probably do so again at u14. Then by u15 you basically know if your team should be in A, B, or C. You'll have teams finding themselves in the correct league for the most part. Plus going to a model where they have league play until Christmas, then cup play after Christmas ensures that after Christmas you have like-for-like teams playing in cup (which I think was a brilliant change to our model!). You can have two Div 1A - if you have, say, 16 teams that are fairly competitive you then regionalize them. There will always be winners, losers, and mid-level teams within those leagues. If a team struggles they need to seriously consider being moved to a lower level the next year (and usually teams self-relegate anyway in the Div 1-4 (not so much in MSL - and that's not a good thing)
 

LFC

Active Member
Aug 23, 2015
314
Clubs will prob be thinking about applying for Metro spots for next fall . Now would be an ideal time for BC Soccer to make changes to the set up by scrapping the MSL and merging it into the Divisions for next fall.
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
Clubs will prob be thinking about applying for Metro spots for next fall . Now would be an ideal time for BC Soccer to make changes to the set up by scrapping the MSL and merging it into the Divisions for next fall.

Not gonna happen. They would make some sort of announcement saying "final year" or something along those lines.

I think what they should push for is to reduce the number of teams in MSL this year. 12 per league is probably just about right. BUT, it depends on how MSL as a league sees itself - is it a "competitive" league, a "strictly development league" or does it just happen to be a league higher than Division 1. If it's "competitive" they can more easily say to clubs "you guys have struggled for years, you aren't welcome back" and this may mean some districts not having teams in every age group....

But that won't happen either.

IMO CSA needs to direct every province to follow a specific model. Once that happens BCSA can step in and bring the league boards together to make it happen. Then the league boards can inform their members. This would all take 1-2 years I assume.

CSA's direction can be fairly broad. "top tier", "second tier", "third tier", "rec tier." But they would have to define what qualifies as top tier, second tier etc. BCSPL-MSL-Divisions-House would fall into those fairly easily. But they'd now all be under the same national direction, and BCSA would then be better able to direct who can and should be in MSL - BCSPL is set, and I support the current make-up (some franchises struggle but that's a different topic) for sure. I also support the theory behind BCSPL and always have (I don't support specific aspects of it). Essentially BCSA could then streamline MSL all on it's own, and I'd suggest doing so with the same model as BCSPL but with more clubs. Say, maybe restricting it to 12-14 clubs at MSL and having to apply/re-apply at set-periods of time to join etc. This is another level of governance so having the staff/volunteers to do this would potentially be a hurdle.
 

WTF

Active Member
Sep 3, 2015
191
yup. i do think it's a case now that BCSA needs to take over the entire league structure. they've set-up BCSPL (warts and all) and it seems to be settled with scheduling etc. It's time BCSA does the same for MSL down to Div 2 (I would suggest making Div 3-4 completely rec but I guess that's another discussion). streamline everything. BCSPL can keep it's name, but everything else call it Div 1-3 or whatever it would be, and allow for easier movement, organization and standardization.

BC soccer needs to be more involved and to improve the levels of play , they should definitely try making all play Divisional to allow for up/down movement. Surely nothing wrong with trying this on a trial basis for 1 season
 

WTF

Active Member
Sep 3, 2015
191
Metro wars - Newton/Surrey clubs - CCB,SFC, BC TIGERS/PUFC will be fighting for max Metro spots in each boys age group . Tryouts coming up and some clubs will be after 2 spots in each age group . Mostly all BC TIGERS teams including Metro teams currently with SFC will likely go with BC TIGERS for the fall
 

TKBC

Established Member
Aug 21, 2015
1,256
Metro wars - Newton/Surrey clubs - CCB,SFC, BC TIGERS/PUFC will be fighting for max Metro spots in each boys age group . Tryouts coming up and some clubs will be after 2 spots in each age group . Mostly all BC TIGERS teams including Metro teams currently with SFC will likely go with BC TIGERS for the fall

PUFC/BC Tigers can't simply create metro teams. They have to apply and be accepted into the league. Surrey already has 3 metro clubs, can't see a 4th being approved but I guess stranger things have happened....
 

Metro Dad

Member
Jan 25, 2016
22
Same U15 Metro team I referred to above just won their league title again for a second year in a row. And each and every one of these boys are for all intents and purposes is denied a crack at the provincial team while crappy bottom-level U15 SLP teams all get to send two boys each to the provincial tryouts. Excuse me if this comment is a little off topic but it does feed into the same comment make above by several others that Metro teams don't practice as much as SPL ones. This particular MSL team trains 4 days a week with at least one game a week, enters more tournaments that SPL teams do and takes off less time - and has a quality coach who motivates the boys to be their best. Add to this equation a phenomenal technical trainer. I speak from experience in saying that the ridiculous SPL fees do not always guarantee you this quality of coaching or a collective group of boys (or girls) of this calibre.
 

Metro Dad

Member
Jan 25, 2016
22
IMHO, promotion/relegation at the youth level is an adult ego issue and would benefit no one if implemented. SPL is about developing players, not teams.
Not completely true from my experience and from what I see. SPL is mainly about the winning. Coaches choose players who are for the most part big and strong. Some are also very skilled but others are not. And smaller, skilled players are often cut simply because they are not up to the task physically. I have seen this time and time again.
 
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